{The List} Religion

[DarkCloud]

KALIUS (aka Frozzy)

conversion

Have evangelists as a unit which can convert a city. The converted city give half it's gold to the civ's religion it now worships per turn.

Kucinich (aka Skywalker)

No religion. Too touchy, and it would take time away from things that are much more important.

Jaguar

I think evangelists should be specialists a la entertainers. Missionaries should be units.

DarkCloud- Personally, I would rather not have a religion system, but if such a system is necessary, I would necessarily shy away from Christianity/Islam/Judaism/Buddhism and allow players to define the names of their religions for use in the game- this would allow Firaxis to remove themselves from much bickering and controversy... That being said, if religion is allowed in the game- it should work more in a background Europa Universalis sort of way- instead of having units such as missionaries, it should be 'under the hood'... For example: In Civ Call to Power- units like the Televangelist took away from the game structure and made it more abstract... whereas a religion 'under the hood' like in EU where you can adjust tolerance levels would function quite nicely

KUCINICH-

If you have a religion system with "evangelists" and "missionaries", abstract it.

I just had a cool idea - make it the same as the espionage system, except the names change based on the era! So in the Middle Ages it would be Missionaries, in the Industrial Era it would be Spies, etc.

hexagonian

I would favor a format where religious elements would play a greater role in the Ancient/Medieval part of the game and then played a lessened role after that - in fact I can see those Ancient/Medieval benefits that you created losing their benefit once you hit the Modern age.

maximusarelius

It would be cool if you could have religions and it would effect the technology reasearch... it could work the government. Change at times. Aslo religous wars could break out. Depending on government form you could (not that i support what really happened), but you could have concentration camps where without you may have resisters during a religous war that could affect man things. Things from production to cities rebeling and becoming an independant nation or join another. Whatever happens, religion does play a key role in the formation of civs.

Fosse

I recognize the role religion has played in human civilization, but feel that making it integral to Civ 4 would require the addition of an entire new layer of gameplay that may prove to be too time consuming, unbalanced, and unsatisfying to justify its implementation.

What I don't want from any system would be the following:
*Player choosing religion for Civ. Maybe choosing an "official" religion - or religious stance. But not saying, "Okay, now we're Roman Catholic because it has these bonuses!"
*Special religious units, a la the CtP series.
*A New minigame - which I think would only distract from the current game.


Though, I might be convinced otherwise. I just don't feel that there is enough to gain with religion (at least not with any proposals I've heard so far).

Fosse

I hope you're right, besides being politically charged it would make bad gaming.

If we make "View on Religion" a social engineering choice, we could have:

Official: The state recongnizes one religion as being true. You get an increase in the effects of relgious buildings, and slight diplomatic penalties with nations that do not have an official creed. Creates a strong unhappiness that effects a very small number of citizens (Those who believe otherwise).

Secular: Division of church and state. Religious buildings provide less benefit. Slight happiness bonus to general population (not enough to counter religious building happiness) to reflect freedom of religion.

Atheist: The state recognizes the absence of religion. Religious buildings have no effect.
What positives could this have?

Stefu

I still hold to the model from Civ3 List we worked hard on but which didn't get implemented (although something off it probably rubbed to the culture model). Basically, religions as independent non-player operators. Religions are started by prophets and grow on their own accord. Player can choose their stance as regarding each religion, and that stance effects how fast that religion grows - and each religion chooses it's stance regarding a player, and that stance affects how happy the adherents of that religion are. Religions can also conduct some diplomacy - demand that a player stops a war against another civilization or starts one, demand more money for their conversion efforts, etc.

I honestly don't think that this would be too complicated. It would certainly put another element to the gameplay, but it would be an important element and certainly one that's been largely ignored in the previous Civ games. Also, I think that real religions should be used, and even am open to the possibility of bonuses, though I'm aware it could be controversial.

What I DON'T want is religion as just another Social Engineering choice.

edited thru stefu's summary of the LIST.

[DarkCloud]

RELIGION
—Summarized by Thread Manager: raingoon—
brookchild@aol.com

The version 2.0 religion thread was one of the most active threads on the Civ3 suggestion board. Posters worked together to combine suggestions from the previous wish list with the current religion thread and create a unified model that attempts to balance religion against other concepts in the game. Thus, in the spirit of creating a “living document,” all ideas from the v1.0 summary will either be found represented within the model outlined in sections 1-4, or featured as alternatives in section 5 following it.
Contents
1. Religion in Civ3
1.1 Why have it in the game?
1.2 Religion in Civ3 Defined.
2. Religion Concepts
2.1 Origins
2.2 Conversion
2.3 Tithing
3. Effects of Religion
3.1 Under Religious Freedom
3.2 Establishment of a State Religion
3.3 Persecution
3.4 Religious Improvements
4. Religious Diplomacy
4.1 Major and Minor Religions
4.2 Diplomatic Options for Major and Minor Religions
4.3 Additional Diplomatic Options for Major Religions
5. More Ideas, Opinions, and Comments
1. Religion in Civ3
1.1) Why have it in the game?
As the discussion has evolved, the vast majority feel religion has been under-represented in Civ 1 and 2. Discussions were founded on the belief that religion is a fundamental force driving civilizations, and that the effects of religion permeate the history of nations, their borders, their wars and their treaties. Your ability to direct religion's impact should be likewise varied. You should be able to identify your citizens individually by their beliefs, track the rise and fall of major religions, and generally get your hands into the religious mechanisms that have historically led nations to war and caused civilization’s to grow and crumble. With that in mind…
1.2) Religion in Civ3 Defined.
Religion should be a game element comparable to trade. Where trade deals with resources, religion would deal with population.
1.2.1) Religions would be synonymous with citizens, each citizen having the ability to belong to one religion.
1.2.2) Each city would be represented on the game map by the religion practiced by the majority of its citizens.
1.2.3) Each religion would have its own symbol.
1.2.4) No religion would have greater or lesser numerical values than any other. This has evolved to ensure that real-world religions could be used without causing offense. However, some still want each religion to have different Evangelism and Conviction ratings (defined below) and don’t believe it would be contentious.
1.2.5) Religion names could be edited by the player, thus Firaxis can choose to set the AI to default to historical religions, defunct religions, or fictional religions, or whatever they deem most appropriate. Under this proposal, all suggested beliefs are honored because the player would have the start-up option of choosing which religion "brands" he/she wanted in the game.
1.2.6) At any time there could be up to three more religions than there are civs. If there were ever four more than X civs, the smallest religion would be eliminated and its members given to the second smallest religion.
1.2.7) Religions would be visible in the game in four ways:
1.2.7.1) In the city screen by each population figure holding a flag with its religion’s symbol on it. When the population became too large for this to work, there would be a separate graphic showing the number of citizens adhering to each religion.
1.2.7.2) On the main map you would see the current religious borders of the world by filtering for it (e.g., hitting F1 key). This feature would introduce the concept of “religious regions,” which would rarely conform to political borders, leading to new strategic considerations. For instance, players would now have to take into account the religious geography of their theater of war.
1.2.7.3) Cleric units would represent both a specific civ (by color) and a specific religion (by symbol).
1.2.7.4) On the main map, the symbol of a city’s majority religion would appear on that city’s flag, next to its size.
2. Religion Concepts
2.1) Origins
Once civs have had time to establish a foothold, prophets would begin to appear. Religions would begin to spread immediately thereafter. This has evolved from ideas such as the previous suggestion that wars or “three nasty events in a row” cause religions to appear. In this model, new religions would appear realistically, throughout the centuries. Some might never grow more than a city or two, while others would become recognized world religions. Some that were eradicated would never be heard of again; others might enjoy a revival two thousand years later.
2.1.1) Prophets
2.1.1.1) All civs would begin non-aligned and would experience the emergence of at least one prophet beginning with the second millenium of the game, but not before the discovery of religion.
2.1.1.2) A prophet is not a unit, but rather a newly born citizen in a given city's population window, identified by his/her new religious symbol, with higher conversion values (20 evangelism, 25 conviction) than regular citizens (see conversion, below, for explanation of conversion values).
2.1.1.3) After their appearance prophets would last for X turns, where X is randomly chosen from between 15 and 30, then convert back into regular citizens; their religious symbol would remain.
2.1.1.4) After the prophet disappeared from a city, the remaining citizens would continue to benefit from the prophet's greater conversion values for 20 more turns. This is to ensure fledgling religions will have a chance to develop.
2.1.1.5) Prophets can appear at any time during the game.
2.1.1.6) Turywenzism begins with an announcement such as: "Turywenzo has begun preaching in Turygrad."
2.1.1.7) Prophets can appear in any city.
2.1.1.8) Upon appearing, prophets would instantly convert one citizen (other than themselves, of course); after that, conversion would proceed under the normal rules for citizen to citizen conversions (see, below).
2.1.1.9) If a government persecutes the new religion while the prophet is preaching, the prophet would be considered martyred and disappear, leaving behind his/her bonus as described above. All non-aligned citizens within 8 squares would immediately convert to the new religion.
2.1.1.10) A religion can re-appear with a new prophet only after its religion has previously been eradicated.
2.1.1.11) Some suggest that in the modern era the prophet be called a “propagandist,” his “religion” to be considered more generally a belief – as in Marx and Communism.
2.2) Conversion
Each religion would be incompatible with all others. Whenever two religions overlapped "zones of influence”, each would seek to dominate the other. The AI would handle the calculations and keep track of the results. New conversions would be noted in the population window of the appropriate city.
2.2.1) Evangelism
2.2.1.1) All citizen units in the population window have evangelism values.
2.2.1.2) Evangelism is the "attack" value of a religion.
2.2.1.3) All religions begin with the same base evangelism value, 10.
2.2.2) Conviction
2.2.2.1) All citizen units in the population window have conviction values.
2.2.2.2) Conviction is the "defense" value of a religion.
2.2.2.3) All religions begin with the same base conviction value, 15.
The higher conviction rating is so that, all things being equal, citizens should successfully defend against conversion attempts about 60% of the time.
2.2.3) Adjusting Conversion Ratings
You would be able to increase (or in some cases decrease) your citizens' conversion ratings by:
2.2.3.1) Donating money to a specific religion.
2.2.3.2) Declaring a state religion.
2.2.3.3) Hosting a holy city.
2.2.3.4) Building a city improvement.
2.2.3.5) Building a Wonder.
2.2.3.6) Discovering a technological advance.
2.2.3.7) Setting your civ's attitudes towards religion in the religion screen.
2.2.3.8) Four like believers in one city increases each believer's values by .25; thus, a 4 stack of 4 Yahoos, at 10 evangelism each, is worth 50.
2.2.3.9) Declaring religious freedom.
2.2.3.10) Having a positive or negative SE Nationalism rate (see Social Engineering summary).
2.2.3.11) Establishing a mission.
2.2.4) Passive Conversions
2.2.4.1) Calculations are made by "stacking" citizens together by religion and combining their values.
2.2.4.2) Passive conversions reflect the influence of the citizens in a city on their fellow citizens and the proportionately weaker influence of citizens in nearby cities.
2.2.4.3) Passive conversions would be calculated, on average, every five turns. The computer would randomize the interval between passive conversions so that players couldn’t boost evangelism/conviction factors the year before a scheduled passive conversion.
2.2.4.4) Possible formula for calculating passive conversion:
quote:

The Evangelism (Conviction) of a religion within a city is the sum of: the Evan(Conv) of each member in the city; plus (1 - dist/10) * Evan(Conv) of each member of that religion in a city less than 10 squares away; plus 1/2 * Evan(Conv) of each member of that religion in a city that has a mission to the city. If a religion has no members in a city, it is not attacked by other stacks.


2.2.4.5)Once the evangelism and conviction factors are calculated, the results are calculated like a battle between units of equal strength. If the evangelizing side wins, one citizen of the opposing religion is converted.
A sample conversion turn within a city:
quote:

4 Turywenzists in London start with an evangelist factor of 10. England has Turywenzism as the state religion (+0.2 modifier) which increases each Turywenzists citizen's base evangelism value to 12. The city of London has a cathedral (+.10 modifier = 13). This gives each Turywenzist in London an evangelist factor of 13. And 4 of its citizens are Turywenzists (+.25 modifier each)., for a combined stack evangelism value of 65. This factor is calculated against the conviction ratings of the 2 Londoners who are Yahoos who receive none of the modifiers, but whose higher conviction ratings nevertheless combine to equal 30, increasing the odds they won't capitulate in one turn. When the calculation is reversed, there is an even smaller chance the Yahoos combined evangelism rating of 20 will have any effect at all on the Turywenzist stack's combined conviction rating after all the modifiers have been figured in.

For more discussion of modifiers and the religion screen, see section 3 below, "Effects of Religion."
2.2.4.6) For every successful conversion, one unit in the defending religion stack would convert.
2.2.5) Active Conversions - "Missions Established by Player"
2.2.5.1) A civilization with a "state religion" (see section 3 for definition) would be able to build a Cleric unit of the state religion. A cleric resembles a caravan unit; it cannot attack and ignores ZOC. When it enters a city it founds a mission from the state religion and disappears (just as a caravan creates a trade route and disappears.) Each city may only contain 3 missions.
2.2.5.2) The player may only establish missions outside his/her civ. The religion-AI would be able to establish them everywhere (see below).
2.2.5.3) A mission brings the foreign city into the home city's zone of influence; the foreign city is now treated as if it resided 4 tiles away from the home city and follows the rules for city to city conversions until the mission is de-established.
2.2.5.4) A mission converts one citizen when first founded automatically, and increases the conviction rating for citizens of its religion by 50% of the base value as long as it remains in existence.
2.2.5.5) Clerics disappear after they have established one mission.
2.2.5.6) Like trade routes, missions are always successfully established.
2.2.5.7.) Like diplomats, clerics may be destroyed or expelled en route.
2.2.5.8) If the last remaining member of a religion in a city is converted away, any mission from that religion in the city is immediately disbanded and removed. This, and the destruction of the city, are the only things that can destroy a mission once founded.
2.2.6) Active Conversions – “Missions Established by AI Religion”
2.2.6.1) The religion may send clerics from any city to any city, ignoring civ borders entirely. It prefers to start clerics from the city where its members' total evangelism is highest, and send them to the city where its members' total conviction is lowest. It also prefers to minimize the distance the cleric must travel. (The relative importance of these three preferences is not obvious.)
2.2.6.2) In all other respects religion-owned clerics act like civ-owned ones.
2.2.6.3) The AI clerics are generated by a religion when the religion has accumulated X+D gold (where X is the total number of believers of that religion throughout the world, and D is a configurable parameter).
2.2.7) Population growth expands religions
In the case of new citizens being born, the percentage chance they would be born believing in religion X, Y, or Z would be equal to the percentage that religion X, Y, and Z were represented within that city.
2.3) Tithing
Gold pieces are what religions use to fund missions, their most powerful tool for expansion.
2.3.1) Religious coffers are tracked by the AI.
2.3.2) The amount of gold a religion has can be seen in the religion screen, but only if that religion has a holy city (see Diplomacy, below).
2.3.3) Under religious freedom: Each turn, every city tithes one gold per religion represented, to the respective religions coffers. This comes from the trade stream. To avoid making the burden too great, tithes are subtracted before the corruption calculation (since even a cad would hesitate to steal from the church). In addition, the civs would no longer pay upkeep for religious improvements. Instead, the upkeep fees for all religious improvements are subtracted from the treasuries of the religions, with each religion paying a proportion of the total upkeep proportionate to its share of the civ's population.
2.3.4) Under a state religion: The tithe paid by the government is automatically sent into that religion's coffers; the city tithe from religious freedom is disabled. Some suggest in addition that, under a state religion, the religion continues to receive the city tithe from religious freedom.
2.3.5) When a religion has built missions in all available cities it continues to collect tithes and build its coffers.
2.3.6) Donations : Religions will ask for donations periodically. However, the player totally free to neglect their wish.
2.3.7) A religion can loan gold to a civ (see Diplomacy, holy cities, below).
3. Effects of Religion
The player will have several options with regard to each religion. He or she may choose to establish a state religion or allow religious freedom. Regardless of whether there is religious freedom or an state religion, the player may choose to persecute one or more religions.
3.1) Under Religious Freedom
3.1.1) Effect on happiness, using current system.
3.1.1.1) For each religion in a city, one unhappy citizen becomes content or, if there are no unhappy citizens, a content citizen becomes happy. This effect continues indefinitely, so that each religion present in a city adds a step to the base happiness level of the city. Some suggest instead that one unhappy becomes content, or one content becomes happy. Alternatively, others suggest that if just 2/3 of the people are of the same religion (any religion), 1 citizen becomes content.
3.1.1.2) To keep religion from having too great a benefit, the happiness effects described in 3.1.1.1) will apply to no more than one out of every four citizens in a city. That is, if there are seven citizens and three religions, only two citizens may be made happy. So the effects are rounded up.
3.1.1.3) Civilizations with religious freedom get a +2 Happiness bonus (see the SE summary for more about the Happiness SE factor).
3.1.1.4) A civ in a state of religious freedom cannot build cathedrals or clerics. Already existing Cathedrals generate an amount of money equal to their normal upkeep cost to simulate tourism. Some would add that a civ under religious freedom cannot build temples.
3.1.2) Effect on happiness using alternate systems.
A few people have proposed systems under which happiness becomes a percentage factor for each city that affects the productivity, and is not an attribute of the citizens. Under such systems, the conversion of one citizen to a new religion would increase the overall happiness/productivity percentage.
3.1.3) Effect of religious freedom on conviction.
Under religious freedom, the conviction rate for all citizens is 20 percent lower than it would otherwise be.
3.1.4) Effect of full toleration.
In addition to the effects listed above, if the player is not persecuting any religion, the research output of the religion increases by 10 percent (under the Civ2 system) or the Research SE factor improves by +1. Some would add that this effect should begin only after a civ has had religious freedom for three turns in a row.
3.2) Establishment of a State Religion.
Under this system, the state picks one religion as its official state religion. Establishing a state religion does not imply or require persecution of any of the other religions within the civ's territory.
3.2.1) Effect on happiness
3.2.1.1) The effects on happiness described above under religious freedom cease.
3.2.1.2) If there are four believers of the state religion in the same city, one of them becomes happy (as the bonus of the Peacekeepers in SMAC). If a different happiness/productivity system is adopted, proclamation of a state religion increases a city (or civilization) happiness/productivity level by a factor of 25 percent times the proportion of citizens who belong to the state religion. However there is disagreement if the bonus should be rounded up (1, 2 or 3 believers already make one happy) or down (the bonus applies only if there are 4 believers). Some suggest that if a city has a temple, the happiness of 25% of the state religion's members residing in the city is upgraded.
3.2.1.3) An additional unhappy citizen becomes content if more than 50 percent of the citizens (= a majority) of a city are members of the state religion.
3.2.1.4) The state religion's evangelism factor increases by 20 percent for all conversion activities within the borders of that civ.
3.2.1.5) If your state religion has a majority in a city you just conquered, the city is immediately assumed assimilated. The normal assimilation process is just as in SMAC 50 turns of increased unhappiness.
3.2.1.6) If another civ declares war on you, all the citizens in his empire that follow your state religion get one lower happiness level.
3.2.1.7) Deestablishing the state religion. A civ may deestablish a state religion at any time. However, deestablishment shall result in a period of Anarchy (see SE thread) for one turn.
3.2.2) Tithes.
A civ that has an established church must pay 20 percent of its total taxes as tithes to the church. When using the SE factors, the civ gets –2 Tax.

(ctd)

[DarkCloud]

3.2.3) Cathedral.
Only a civ that has a state religion may build Cathedrals, which has the same effect as in Civ2. That means 4 unhappy citizens are made content. When you discover the tech advance Rationalism, the Age of Faith ends and Cathedrals only make 3 citizens content. Some suggest instead that a cathedral work like an upgraded temple; with exactly twice the effect on happiness that they suggest giving to a temple, that is, that 50 percent of the members of the state religion get their happiness level upgraded and that in any city containing a cathedral and a temple, the temple has no effect (like the several power plant improvements, only the best one works.) A Cathedral also increases the state religion’s Evangelism strength by 10%.
3.2.4) Multiple civs with the same state church.
3.2.4.1) A civ may establish a religion as its state church even if another civ has already made that religion its state church. In such cases, the religion will not take any action against either of the civs, and will remain neutral in any conflict between them.
3.2.4.2) If the religion has a holy city, one of the civs in the above example may request the excommunication of the other civ’s leader (see Diplomacy). The religion will demand a contribution related to the number of believers in the excommunicated civ, and the religion's attitude toward both the civ asking for the excommunication, and the civ being excommunicated. Some would treat this concept as part of diplomacy.
3.2.5) Schism
Civs may declare a schism in their state religion, even if they are the only civ having that religion as their state religion. This creates a new religion, to which most of the citizens belonging to the old religion will convert. A percentage of the members equal to an individual member's conviction rating (after all bonuses and penalties) remain faithful to the old religion. The remainder join the schism. Handy if you’re excommunicated or just tired of the religious leader’s demands.
3.3) Persecution.
Under this system, belonging to a persecuted religion is illegal. A government may persecute any number of religions.
3.3.1) A persecuted religion's conversion factor is reduced by 25 percent for all conversion activities within the borders of the persecuting civ.
3.3.2) Happiness under persecution
Some say that all the persecuted citizens should simply get a lower happiness level (means happy citizens become content, content unhappy and unhappy very unhappy).
Others say that 50% of the persecuted citizens should get a lower happiness level.
Still others say that for every persecuted citizen, two citizens should get a lower happiness level.
3.3.3) Research under persecution
Some think that the research output of any city containing persecuted citizens should decrease by 25 percent to reflect the effect of intolerance. Others think that for every persecuted religion, the civ should get a –1 to the Research factor.
3.3.4) Persecution has no positive effect other than those that result from the increase in the number of believers in other religions. If there is a state religion, the state religion is likely to be the chief beneficiary of persecution.
3.3.5) If a civ persecutes a religion, its reputation with any civ that has chosen that religion as it’s state religion will worsen. And its reputation with the religion itself will worsen even more.
Also the religious leader of the persecuted religion may ask a civ that has chosen that religion as it’s state religion to begin a holy war/Jihad.
3.4) Religious Improvements.
Previously it had been pointed out that names of structures need not be western based only (consider mosques, synagogues, etc.) That said, the types of religious improvements, for the most part, should remain the same as in Civ1/2; they may be built by any civ that has obtained the necessary technologies with the exceptions noted above. However, instead of a Temple making a fixed number of people content, the new use should be that a Temple is necessary to reap the happiness benefits described under 3.1.1.1 and 3.2.1.2. Previously some had suggested you should only be able to build religious structures if you have at least one supported religion, and that only followers of that religion would get some good out of that.
3.4.1) Other improvements: Some suggested that building educational facilities (school, University) makes exposure to other religions greater. Under this suggestion, each religion would get an extra percentage point when on "the offense" (trying to convert someone).
4. Religious Diplomacy
4.1) Major and Minor Religions
The diplomatic options available for interacting with a religion depend on the size of the religion.
4.1.1) Minor religions.
All religions start as minor religions.
4.1.2) Major religion.
A religion becomes a major religion when it has a number of adherents greater than the total number of citizens in the world divided by the starting number of civs. It remains a major religion even if an increase in world population or decrease in the number of adherents results in the religion's share of global population falling below 1/(starting number of civs).
4.1.3) Holy Cities and Great Shrines
4.1.3.1) When a religion becomes a major religion, the city where that religion started is proclaimed the holy city of that religion. That means that that city gets an automatic Great Shrine. Some would not make the appearance of the Great Shrine automatic. Instead, if a major religion had no Great Shrine, a civ that had that religion as its state religion could build a Great Shrine, at a cost comparable to that of a wonder. Some would allow for the automatic pronouncement of a holy city once a religion became a major religion, but allow another civ to move the holy city by building a Great Shrine. Once the Great Shrine is built, the holy city could be moved again only if the first Great Shrine is destroyed.
4.1.3.2) The Great Shrine upgrades the happiness of all believers of that religion in the city by one level. Some suggest that if a civ controls a religion's Great Shrine, and that religion is the civ’s state religion, all the citizens of that city are never unhappy (as Shakespeare’s Theatre) and their evangelism gets a +20% bonus.
4.1.3.3) If you control a religion's Great Shrine and tolerate that religion, the Great Shrine would increase the happiness level of 25% of the religion’s believers in that city. Some suggest that the tax output of that city is doubled to represent pilgrimage.
4.1.3.4) If you control a religion's Great Shrine and persecute that religion, the happiness level of all of the religion’s believers in the city with the Great Shrine would decrease. Some suggest there be no special effect besides the normal persecution penalties. If the last member of the religion in the city is converted, the Great Shrine is destroyed.
4.1.3.5) If a religion is eradicated from the world, the Great Shrine automatically disappears.
4.1.3.6) If the Great Shrine of a religion is destroyed (by destruction of the holy city or as mentioned in point 4.1.3.4.), any civ that has that religion as its state religion may rebuild the Shrine in one of its own cities.
4.1.3.7) If the holy city is recaptured, the Shrine automatically reappears. This is the only time there can be two holy cities for one religion. Some would delete this point.
4.2) Diplomatic Options for Major and Minor Religions
4.2.1) Request a donation.
Any religion may request a donation from any civ. If the religion is the state religion of that civ, refusal to give the donation will have a negative effect on the religion's attitude toward that civ.
4.2.2) Voluntary donation.
Any civ may give a donation to any religion. The donation will be treated as tithes and used to generate a ministry to a city chosen by the civ. That city may also be a foreign city. So a player could use this system to prop up religions that another player is attempting to eliminate, or to subvert another player's state religion.
4.2.3) Request a mission.
Any civ may request a religion to send a mission to one of its cities. The religion will charge an amount of gold equal to the cost of a religion-generated cleric, and adjusted upward or downward depending on the religion's attitude toward the requesting civ and whether the religion is the state religion of that civ.
4.3) Additional Diplomatic Options for Major Religions.
4.3.1) A major religion may:
4.3.1.1) Request a civ to conduct a jihad/holy war against another civ. The religion may offer to fund the jihad from it’s tithes. A religion will ask a Jihad when (1) that civ is persecuting the religion, or (2) a civ that does not have a substantial number of adherents to the religion has captured the holy city, or, (3) if that civ has repeatedly done things that harmed the religion’s attitude towards that civ.
4.3.1.2) Request a civ to defend another civ from a jihad.
4.3.1.3) Request a civ to conduct a crusade to take control of the holy city from another religion.
4.3.1.4) Demand that a civ sign a treaty with another civ.
4.3.1.5) Ask to become the civ’s state religion.
4.3.1.6) Failure to accede to these requests will hurt a civ's reputation with the religion. The effect will be greater if that religion is the state religion of the civ.
4.3.2) A civ may request a major religion to:
4.3.2.1) intervene in a war by demanding that its opponent sign a treaty.
4.3.2.2) pronounce a blessing, which would increase happiness in that civ for a fixed number of turns.
4.3.2.3) send a ministry to a city owned by another civ.
4.3.2.4) excommunicate another civ’s leader if that civ has the religion as his state religion. Excommunication makes all the followers of the religion have decreased happiness (opposite effect of blessing). Some would characterize this action as placing the citizens of the civ under interdict.
4.3.2.5) repeal an excommunication that the religion has imposed on the civ’s leader.
4.3.2.6) proclaim the civ defender of the faith. A civ may only request to be made the defender of the faith for its state religion. If it subsequently deestablishes the state religion, it ceases to be the defender of the faith. The defender of the faith pays half of the normal monetary cost for any of the actions it asks the religion to take. If the defender of the faith fails to comply with a request from the religion, it loses its status as defender of the faith and its reputation with the religion suffers greatly.
4.3.2.7) loan money to the civ.
4.3.2.8) the religion will charge the civ money for options 4.3.2.1-6 and interest for option 4.3.2.7. The amount will depend on the civ's reputation with the religion, whether the religion is that civ's state religion, whether that civ possesses the religion's holy city, and whether the civ is the defender of the faith.
5. More Ideas, Opinions and Comments
Other ideas from v1.0 bear considering again as equally viable alternatives, and as commentary on the v2.0 model they inspired…
5.1) Some say Communism should have a more difficult time spreading religion, Democracy should have hard a harder time persecuting and so on.
5.2) Animism/Megaliths: In this model, all civilizations start out with Animism and can build Megaliths to increase the chance that more advanced religions will develop. When a religion pops up, a ruler can either accept or reject it, with risk of schism.
5.3) Victory Condition: Unite the entire world to the faith you are using.
5.3.1) “Godhood.” In a model with individualized conversion rates, switching to a religion called "Divine Leader," with a very low starting conversion rate, then making more than half the world accept this religion and proclaim you God, gives you a victory.
5.4) Propagandists: In this model instead of Clerics there would be Propagandists, spreading their agendas (religion being one) to cities. This model also includes some cities being more open to, for instance, Fascism than other cities and being more easily bribed by Fascist nations.
5.5) If a religion has been around a long time, it should have a higher rate of devotion.
5.6) There should be bonuses for Religious Freedom in the form of immigration and science. However, diversity would also create friction and possibly happiness penalties.
5.7) Unhappy people should be more willing to convert to new religions.
5.8) RELIGIONS LIKE SOCIAL ENGINEERING, MODEL 1: In this model, religions can be customized like Social Engineering in SMAC. You could decide primary factors like Monotheism, Polytheism or Mysticism, important aspects such as afterlife and status of priests and TENETS such as Ascetic, Maltheism or Monastic. In order to enact changes, you need DOGMA, which you could get from priests (city profession) or religious wonders. Dogma then slowly changes your religion. The religion master screen would show the percentages of religions in game; you could also edit religions or set their STATE ACCEPTANCE. Religions also have FERVOR status which shows how highly the religion is held: high FERVOR multiplies the effects. DOGMA can be spent to increase FERVOR.
5.9) RELIGIONS LIKE SOCIAL ENGINEERING, MODEL 2: This isn't as complex - Religious models would be chosen from Social Engineering. Suggested models are Animism, Polytheism, Philosophical, Monotheism, Reformed, Fundamentalism, Deism and Atheism. There would be a Theocracy Government choice instead of Fundamentalist. There would be bonuses if the civilization is both Fundamentalist and Theocracy. And finally, like in SMAC, civilizations with differing religious choices would be likely to be hostile towards each other.
5.10) PHILOSOPHY SOCIAL ENGINEERING: This idea sticks to the same social engineering idea but replaces Religion with Philosophy. Philosophical choices would affect diplomatic relations, government types available, speed of research, happiness level of citizens, and productivity of citizens.
5.11) TYPE OF GOD SETS BONUSES/MINUSES: In this idea, the religions pop up at random. They have different bonuses and minuses, depending on what kind of god they worship. If the religion is pantheistic, it gains small bonuses in several areas, but has increased inefficiency and upkeep costs. If it is monotheistic, it gains bonuses depending on what kind of god, for instance is he clockmaker, judge or executioner?
5.12) INDIRECT BONUSES: In this model it may be possible to direct people by way of religion so they, in time, would gain bonuses.
5.13) Tolerance decides how actively the religion will try to convince a civ to make it their state religion: Low-tolerance pursues it while high-tolerance ones don't.
5.14) BIRTH CONTROL MAKES RELIGIONS OBSOLETE: This would also mean that emptied churches would be sold like old barracks in Civ1/2.
5.15) TEMPLES DIFFERING FROM STADIUMS: In this idea, Temples and other religious improvements make members of some religion happy (depending on popularity of religion) while stadiums and other non-religious improvements would make fixed numbers of citizens happy.
5.16) NONVIOLENT ACTION: Gandhi was a kind of missionary. Maybe a supermissionary unit can start long national strikes?
5.17) RANDOM ONE TRUE RELIGION: In this suggestion, the One True Religion would be randomly chosen at the start of a game and it would be up for players to discover which one it is.
5.18) CENTRALIZATION: Centralization would be another factor determining the religion, i.e. it could be High (like Catholic church) with one central body controlling the faith, moderate (like in Middle east) or low (like in Lutheran church), which would preach priesthood for all believers. Centralization would say how much religion will "act," for instance how much it would start crusades without your support. (Maybe it would decide also how likely schisms would be?)
5.19) DISLOYALTY: I.e. Religion system without religion. For instance, the city of Carthage could like Greeks and Romans, be indifferent to Indians and hate the Chinese.
5.20) CHANGING RELIGIONS: If religions have preset attributes, then they could change. For instance, Protestantism used to view science more positively than it does now. Also, Christianity was more pacifist than it typically is today, etc.
5.21) Alternate Naming: Religions would be named after the civilization they sprung from and also from their class, if that were adopted. For instance: Chinese Monotheism would be different from Babylonian Monotheism. Although similar, they could still declare wars against each other.
5.21.1) Certain systems would have titles like government titles in Civilization II. For instance, Arabic Monotheism would be Islam, while Chinese Philosophical would be Confucianism.
5.22)Simple/Complex: A simple setting has one religion/civilization, while complex settings would build toward micromanagement nightmares.
5.23) ZONES: In beginning of the game, you'd have the option to start from a zone influenced by a certain religion, for instance you could choose Muslim influenced zone, Christian influenced zone or Buddhism influenced zone. This would probably mean that Christian religion would spread better in a Christian zone than in a Muslim Zone…
5.24) Some suggested classes have been: Polytheism, Monotheism, Animism, Philosophical, Reformed, Fundamentalist, Deist and Atheist.
5.25) Ethnic groups. In this model there are is an ethnic factor, of which religion is one.
5.26) Some previously said it would be frustrating if religion worked behind the scenes to the extent you could not see its effects instantly.
5.27) Another variation on an “ethnic factor” is that each civilization has culture, and Religions are part of that culture. Civs with superior culture gain influence over other, less cultured civs (not always superior of power, mind you.)
5.28) Religion should remain a function of SMAC-like Social Engineering.
5.29) Centralization would indicate how structural a religion is – E.g., is it like the Catholic Church, with huge hierarchies, or the Lutheran Church, which believes in the priesthood of all followers? Centralization factor could affect a religion’s diplomatic relationship with government – with re to crusades, etc. Maybe it also affects how often there will be Schisms?
5.30) Real religions should appear on real years – Christianity starting 33 AD, Islam 500 AD, etc.
5.31) Religious riots? What if members of one religion are unhappy because they don’t have a temple? Religious riots. Nastier than normal riots, as rioters destroy buildings of other people’s worship, thus escalating the situation. They could even destroy wonders.

(ctd)

[DarkCloud]

5.32) Should a State Religion be chosen, then all improvements of other religions are torn down (while some claim they could be transformed to the new churches of State Religion, or sold like Barracks.)
5.33) First ones to convert in any city are the unhappiest ones, then content and finally happy people.
5.34) If someone has Holy City and State Religion, they could have new government option called Theocracy. Under Theocracy the Holy City acts like a second capital, lessening corruption nearby.
5.35) It is said that in modern world Science is replacing Religion, so Scientific Teachers would be atheist missionaries (the idea is that people would abandon their God-centered world of view and adopt scientific theories of birth of world and life instead.) Author of this idea says that they should also be better than normal missionaries.
5.36) Religion can be just the thing to give new life to a scenario – or just the thing to destroy it. You should be able to remove them altogether or determine that there will be no new conversions. You should also be able to place whatever mix of religions you want in each city.
5.37) Religions should not appear on the tech tree at all.
5.38) There should be an option to “switch off” religion at the start-up.
5.39) If atheism is used as a label in the v2.0 model, some suggested that logically there could be no holy city in the event it became a major religion. There are some name-customizing problems implied by this.
5.40) In the v2.0 model, if two religions convert one citizen on the same turn, some suggested that the citizen be “confused” and turn to agnosticism, which means a reversion back to non-aligned, for game purposes.
5.41) ALTERNATIVE RELIGION ORIGINS. One poster suggested that as you reach a certain technological level, determined by an accumulation of points from both the tech side and the religion side, a new religion would be announced in the same way that the Golden Age of Philosophy in Civ2 was announced. Whatever city gave the final research point that pushed the appropriate tech over the edge would be the "religious center".
5.41.1) A "center" would not require having members of that religion live there. If the tech that pushed you over came from a goody hut, then an unoccupied tile will be the holy place. This would be something like Gautama meditating under a once-normal tree which then became a Buddhist center, marked in the game with a little temple icon.
5.42) ANOTHER CONVERSION METHOD. Religions would have different percentages associated with them. When two came into contact the lower would be subtracted from the higher, and the difference would be equal to the percentage that citizen would covert. Each new citizen already of a certain religion in a city adds 1.5% to that religions conversion percentage in that city. Improvements would increase it further. You could also build improvements similar to Capitalization, called Persecution, in which each shield is converted to a percentage chance that citizens will subscribe to whatever religion you tell them to.
5.42.1) If a holy center is captured (or, if on an empty square, the square is pillaged) the religion will lose a percentage point or two.
5.43) Diplomatic negotiations would expose rival civs to new religions, and each would immediately begin to experience conversions to the other’s belief.
5.44) One poster suggested that a Holy City get a trade bonus of arrows (for pilgrimage). This models the Vatican with its population of 800 and 10 million tourists visit every year.
5.45) When a diplomat incites a city to revolt, the price would be modified based on the conversion power of your state religion. If greater than your enemy, the cost drops significantly.
5.46) Some wonders would affect only certain religions. For example, Michelangelo's Chapel might make only Christians in the empire content. This would be incentive to recruit more Christians.
5.47) Other effects of State Religion: The conversion rate would increase by 1%, and each citizen of that religion would generate one luxury.
5.48) Religions evolve with the civ you are playing. In this model, religions start with different modifiers, and, depending on your playing style, i.e., if you are warlike or peaceful, your civ’s religion changes accordingly, on its own. At some point you could force a religion on your people via theocracy and suffer happiness penalties.
5.49) One poster suggested that you could choose what religion you wanted in each city. Each religion would have a bonus (Polytheism would get +100% extra from temples, Monotheism +100% from churches, Atheism a double science bonus from universities and Religious Freedom gets +25% extra from all holy buildings and wonders). Then, it would spread like the v.2.0 model listed above.
5.50) Attitudes religions might have, by category:
Outlook on war (Militant, Neutral, Pacifistic)
Evangelism (Evangelistic, Normal, Non-Evangelistic)
Tolerance (Open, Tolerant, Intolerant)
5.50.1) A militant religion would produce fanatics with the capability of terrorism.
5.51) Theocracies should be possible -- as in a monarchy where a state religion would mean the king was god.
Summary by Raingoon, Will, M@ni@c, Mbrazier, (revised from the summary by Stefu).

LIST OF CONTRIBUTORS
Will, M@ni@c, Mbrazier, Raingoon, NotLikeTea, Stefu, Willko, Mo, MBD, Crusher, Kmj, VaderTwo, evil conquerer, Ecce Homo, Trachmyr, Eggman, Lancer, Doc Dee, Diodorus Sicilus, Yin26, HolyWarrior, Michael Jeszenka, CormacMacArt, Bell, Aharon Ben Rav, Giant Squid, delcuze2, paraclet, Cartagia the Great, Chowlett, The Octopus, Saganaga Canoer, EnochF, Black Dragon, Kris Huysmans, Galen, Flavor Dave, Francis, Theben, Alexander’s Horse, Monk, Bigcivfan, Spartan 187, FinnishGuy, Iceman88888888, Harel, Jon Miller, and many others who have been suggesting the above, in whole or in parts, since the days of Civ I.

[DarkCloud]

Nikolai (suggesting something much like I did above)

I for one is posivie to having religion in the game(doh!), but I think that they shouldn't be real world religions(too much possible controversy and fights), but I'd like fictional religions with random names and so on instead

Link to Pedrunn's post: http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showt...72#post2673772

THE_AUSSIE_LURKER

OK, these are my thoughts on religion in the next game of Civ!

1) All religious advances should be NON-COMPULSORY!!

2) When you achieve a certain religious advance, your people might 'demand' that you change to that religion. The probability of this happening could be based on two major factors, your Civ's 'preferred' and 'shunned' religions, and the existence of a culturally strong neighbour with the same religion as you recently discovered.

3) If you refuse to change to the prefered religion of your people, then you risk the outbreak of a 'SCHISM' (aka, religious Civil War!) The chance of a city breaking away from yours would depend on how far the city lay from the 'Religious Heart' of your empire (as opposed to it's political heart), and the number of relevent religious improvements and units in that city! This idea is quite similar to my ideas for a civil war, only on a religious instead of political basis!

4) Each religion advance (mysticism, polythiesm, monotheism, Eastern Religion etc) would have its own 'flavour', units, buildings and wonders-as well as it's own set of advantages and disadvantages! Orthodox and Protestant wouldn't have their own set of stats, but would increase/decrease the ones which you're already in! For instance, if you're currently polytheist, then switching to Orthodox might increase the strength of your current religious units, whilst decreasing the happiness bonuses of your religious improvements. Once you're orthodox/protestant in a particular type of religion, then changing religions will cause you to loose the benefits/losses of your orthodoxy/protestantism! (Hope I haven't lost you guys !)

5) Changing a religion will cause you to lose the benifits granted by the improvements/Wonders/Units of your previous religion (for instance, becoming monotheistic causes you to lose the benefits of temples etc!) However, like Gov-specific improvements/wonders, they do NOT immediately become obsolete! This could prove helpful for anyone who wants to 'convert' your citizens.

6) Religious units would have several specific functions.

a) They can convert citizens of another foreign city. The chance of success would be increased if improvements/wonders appropriate to your religion exist in that city! For all intents and purposes, these citizens change to your nationality, making that city easier to 'culturally subert' later on. Also, every convert gets you gpt from that Civ, until they can be 're-converted' back to their national religion! Any unit that attempts this is lost (martyred)-regardless of the success/failure of the attempt!

b) They can enslave (i.e. convert) weak units into settler type units who can be brought back to your home city and integrated into your empire-though they still retain their original nationality.

c) They can build missions/shrines etc: These are essentially fortresses especially for religious units, but with the added advantage that they have a cultural value (i.e., they have a border, and are not automatically subsumed into foriegn territory!)

d) They can be used to 'rally' citizens of a foreign civ, this causes the destruction of a single relgious improvement in the foreign city-as the rabble go on a religious 'rampage'!!

7) Religious Civs should have a larger penalty to any attempts to change their religion-to both offset their ability to change governments quickly, and to reflect their greater piety and devotion to a SET religion!

8) Cities should have a chance to produce a Religious/Cultural Great Leader. Like a Scientific GL, these can be used to fastrack Wonders and/or Improvements, or can be 'Sacrificed' to increase the cultural value of a particular city (or the empire?) Lastly, a Cultural GL could be used to either 'Subvert' an entire city or, if it's not too unbalancing, can spark a religious Schism in a foreign empire!

Whats particularly great about these ideas is that manay of them can already be simlulated, to some degree, using Civ3! All I'm talking about is 'formalising' it so that religion becomes a real part of the game!!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

..and that's page one
You're on your own for page 2

[Panag]

hi ,

still nothing about Judaism , ..... the religion that gave birth to lets see , how many religions , ......

if you want religion , then start to do it good , .......

have a nice day

[lajzar]

Id implement religions as government types. If you dont have a religious government, you shouldnt have religion as a significant factor in your decision making. If you do, go wild. Having said that, The religious governments Id have are:

Theocracy - requires monotheism. Alows crusaders. Serious scince penalty.

Caliphate - Meant to reflect the more science-friendly Islamic governments of the middle ages. Has Jannissaries as a special unit.

Blood Cult - Mesoamerican blood cults, but applicable to any religion that practices human sacrifice on a regular basis (Indian thuggee cults?). Gains culture (or gold if that is removed) for sacrificing captured workers.

Fundamentalism - modern religious government. Should have some kind of terrorist unit as a special unit.

The civ2 fundie government needs serious reworking - it was overpowered.

[Plotinus]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III

But evolution carries the meaning of "getting better".

I think Panag's point was that Judaism doesn't simply "evolve" into other religions, because that suggests that Judaism itself changes into them. In fact Judiasm persists and the other religions sprout off from it and go their own way. Judaism does still exist, you know, even though we also have Christianity and Islam. And "evolution" simply means change, not necessarily getting better. Birds evolved from dinosaurs, but it doesn't follow that they're an improvement - they're just adapted to different environments or lifestyles. Who says Islam and Christianity are better than Judaism simply because they came later and developed from it?

In any case, what about Zoroastrianism? That came before them all - with monotheism included - and it's still there!

[Tassadar500]

I'm pretty sure they believed in an idol. It's only semi-monotheism. And, people still are Zoroastrian?

[Wernazuma III]

Yep, mostly in India (a few 100000), but a few hardcorde guys still manage to hold out in Iran!

[Tassadar500]

That doesn't really count. If you don't even have one million members of your religion, you really didn't survive.

[Max Sinister]

I guess for a long time there has been less than one million Jews world-wide... what does that mean, accounting to Nuclear Master?

[Odin]

About time we get religion in civ! I am only worried about Firaxis' PR, somebody is bound to compain that having religious terrorism in the game is in "poor taste."

[Plotinus]

Zorastrians are indeed monotheists. They have been accused of idolatry because of the role fire plays in their religion, and also of dualism because of their dichotomy between good and evil, but they vociferously claim to be monotheists, so I think they should know. A bit mean to say they don't technically exist because there aren't many of them, though - I'm sure they would disagree with that... Have a look at http://coulomb.ecn.purdue.edu/~bulsa...RIAN/wawz.html !

[Jawn Henry]

IDEA:

You could choose your official religion same as you would your gov't. I don't think religion should impact too heavily on the game, but still flavor it: it should only affect foreign relations, and happiness of the people.

I don't think we should have to fool with percentages of a city that belong to X or Y religion - it should be that a city either is or isn't of a certain religion (keep things simple while still adding depth). Those cities of a different religion than the official one would be less happy. One could, however, convert those cities, or possibly, they might be converted over time - sorta like culture conversions.

If you change your religion, then there needs to be some sort of formula to determine how many and which cities will convert right away. I imagine proximity to the capital (or religious center, if different than the capital) could play a part in that.

JH